There are 12 notes in an Octave,so why call it an octave?

Hello all, Hope you enjoyed Easter.

As there are twelve notes in an octave, not eight, why do we call it an Octave? What also makes me scratch my head is that if we do consider the
white notes only, there are really only seven as completing the usual way we play a scale is to play the tonic twice.

Sort me out somebody please.

Alan

ANYBODY?
Regards

not really a reply - just to say your question has long stumped me as well

the eight notes of the octave appear to be the eight notes of the major scale starting and ending with C

as to how the 'octave' was then transformed to cover the 12 half-tones is a mystery to me

Well, it’s simply because it’s the word that was invented to describe the 7+1 notes of the major scale, where the top note has double the frequency of the bottom note. You could use the word tredective to describe the 12+1 notes of the chromatic scale but there’s no need because octave’s definition has morphed from specific to general to mean doubling the frequency, regardless of how many notes there are.

You can say diapason if it annoys you.

Hello and good morning

Lots of things annoy me Viz but I am doing that on thousands of other forums. Joke.

Thanks for your comments have a good bank holiday everyone.

Best

Alan

:))

And you

Was thinking, why can't we come up with a new term to describe the twelve natural sounds contained in the current 'octave'.

How about 'douzelle' ?

Maybe someone can find a better term, with no apparent conflict or contradiction.

Tredective for the interval and 12-tone or chromatic for the scale?

It's historical. Mostly from descriptions of Greek music theory. The early theorists call a note with double the frequency of a given note an "octave," no matter how many notes were considered in between.

Dear Viz. et al!

I'm a total noob and have posted a question as such in another part of the forum, but I can tell you why it's called an octave.

Progression of a scale. Tone. Tone. Semitone. Tone. Tone. Tone. Semitone. Tone. Count 'em up, you get 8. So OCTave as OCT means 8 (hence OCTopus - 8 arms!!)

I flat don't see where people are getting the other 4 notes from! I mean that seriously. If you're including ALL the black notes between - say - C and C, that's 13 notes inclusive. WHY we have 8 note scales is because not all the notes count in that particular grouping called a scale, only 8 of them do. So the bunch of 8 notes in that scale tell you what notes, between the start note and the end note 8 notes higher, to include and which to avoid.

IF you mean you're including all the other black notes (OK, E# is F is a white note!) then it's a CHROMATIC scale. You don't need new names like 'douxelle', it's already got one. Chromatic Scale.

So how you're getting 12 notes in a scale is beyond me, scales don't work like that. A scale is a set of 8 notes between two points, telling you which accidentals to use to remain faithful to the set. A Chromatic Scale is ALL the notes, black and white, between two points.

How do you find 12 notes in an ordinary octave/scale!?! (It's 8 or 13, surely!)

Yours puzzledly

Chris.

Here is how I see it.

A scale, for instance C major, covers 13 apparent notes. In reality, it covers 14 notes or semitones. But this is a minor and obscure point.

Scales use 8 notes for melody and song out of this range. They can be divided into half-scales of 4 notes covering 7 semitones each. Each half-scale can be combined with the half-scale above or below it to be part of 2 scales.

An octave is a natural step in the 88-note chromatic scale. There are 7 complete octaves in the chromatic scale. An octave covers 12 notes or semitones. A dozen notes. A 'dozel', 'doxel', etc. It enumerates all the natural sounds between two similar notes one range apart. It is not used for melody.

An octave is base 12. A scale is base 14. Musical sounds are base 12. Melody and music are base 14.

Musical theory is base 7, the major scale. My research indicates theory can also be described, and far more efficiently, using base 12.

Because it comprises a range of 6 tones within a diatonic scale ... I think ... kk 6 tones without repetition.
this material here talks a lot about scales - avancandonamusica.com.br



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2019 11:07AM by avancandoms. (view changes)

Thank you for the discussion. I am a beginner in this field and my concern is how to make notation of a song for piano version, as I am taking lesson from and looking for the answer and advance thanks for the help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2022 09:34PM by oli123. (view changes)

A question I have also asked myself. I have not done historical research on this topic.

My current position is that the octave originally described the eight notes found in western scales, for instance C major: C D E F G A B C.

Since to jump from the first C to the second C requires leaping twelve notes, the term octave also covered the twelve natural pitches found in any octave. The octave then evolved to mean these twelve notes.

A bit more on the name. Historically, the Greeks derived musical tones from two overlapping tetrachords (4-note patterns). Actually, there were 3 tetrachords and two were chosen. See Wiki on Tetrachords.

When two overlapping tetrachords are juxtaposed, there are 7 different tones. The set of tones was considered to extend cyclically in both directions. Counting the beginning and ending tones, one gets 8 tones in an octave: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A. The name "octave" has been used by acoustic researchers to mean "double the frequency." It's all historical and rather interesting. Also see "Medieval Modes" and "Hexachord Theory."

Similar, but not musical, usage is seen in the Spanish term "ocho días" to mean "una semana" or one week. (Quince días for two weeks.)

Names may depend on whether on counts days (or notes) inclusively or not. One can count by items (8 to complete an octave) or by spaces between items (7).

As for 8 (or 7) vs 12 comes from the tetrachords being unevenly spaced. These tetrachords had half-steps, whole-steps, and one had a step-and-a-half. The modern arrangement of notes consists of the "most evenly" spaced arrangement of 7 notes with 2 half-steps. It's a common (but completely universal) arrangement. Apparently, there's a nearly 50,000-year-old flute (the Neanderthal Flute) that reproduces a modern major (or minor if cyclic permutations are counted) scale.

If one fills in the half-steps, one gets the chromatic scale with 12 notes (or 13 if one counts the endpoints.)